I don't follow Quebec politics too closely because it would not be good for my heart. I disagree with Quebec Inc. period.
For me, Quebec is very lucky to be a part of Canada because if it wasn't, it would be a jurisdiction on par with the deep south - which it is pretty much as it stands. From its parochialism to its corruption to its poor business models.
To Quebecers, this is "Quebec bashing." To the rest of us removed from the insular world of political life in Quebec, it's reality.
The linquistic problem in Quebec is not normal. You just don't see or hear the stories told - and someone really should begin to collect them and make an essay or even a book of it - in other places.
I know this because I have friends and family in many countries and states. Whenever we talk about stories like this one about urgence sante, people just nod and say, "it's not right. It's not like that where we come from. We do our best to accommodate. Not to insult and upset."
Health and safety knows no language.
That's normal behavior.
"Not requiring" to speak English on its own is a vapid, evasive term on par with "we're not required to speak Spanish" in the United States. No one is "required" to do anything. But few would not attempt to accommodate out of decency and common courtesy. Hence, in the U.S., chances are a Mexican will somehow find a willing person to help them out in a hospital free of the language baggage we have here.
Once again, we miss the point.
I truly feel bad - even embarrassed - by this province.
It's unconscionable at how we play politics with issues like health. It's a disgrace. It has no honor.
Worse, I have to pay taxes to public servants who could tell me to "parle en francais?"
Fuck them. And fuck urgence sante for their cowardly "not required" crap.
***
I say this also aware that French-language radio shows and pundits are spinning things saying "Anglos are becoming aggressive" which is pure bull shit.
And I really don't give a shit about what Lisee has to say on this issue because he and his cohorts have set this childish tone in this province. The narrative is laid down by the rhetoric of political buffoons.
It's not an Anglo thing. It's a basic human thing.
It's one thing to not be able to speak English and convey it in a respectful manner and quite another to speak as though some social law is broken. People are not animals and will understand. But when you're in distress and the person in front of you is being an asshole about it (and I would have slugged him), it's not acceptable.
Quebecers always try to hurl a strawman by saying "we wouldn't be served in French" in Ontario or Idaho!" Perhaps, but I would bet my last penny folks in other places would do their best to take care of you . Most places would make an effort, I presume and from I've learned over time, to find someone to help with the language barrier.
I've been in situations in Quebec hospitals where the nurses are so callous they'll huff if someone can't speak English and I had to help the patient out.
It's retarded that it even happens whether it's one or one hundred people.
Until non-francophones actually manage to get a sniff at meaningful jobs with power in the public service, the situation will not improve. I don't see any enlightened or empathetic minds running the show. How can Quebec improve when so little of us are represented?
My wife and I have made our decision. My daughter isn't staying here. I don't want her ever being told "parle moi en francais" as if she's second class as I've experienced. Let me tell you. It's not pleasant and that shit sticks with you.
We hope to follow her down the yellow brick road.
If this is Quebec, I want no part of it.
My tax dollars will go elsewhere.
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If I'm the CEO of an American company, I'd watch the QLF closely. If Americans were more aware at the fact they may be targets of this pathetic organization, maybe we'd have more political will to put a stop to the SS-type of behavior. American corporations are notorious for their 'equal rights' commitments and I'm sure they would not be too pleased to see how their language is treated here.
Quebec nationalists have an issue with English but have no problem shopping in America or working for American companies.
Sears may want to investigate their stores a little closer.
Just saying.
I may use this blog more and more to expose this stuff. Let's drag Quebec into the 21st century.
I understand very well and agree with you. You know how much I like the French language, but this is a totally different thing altogether.
ReplyDeleteMy daughter isn't staying here. I don't want her ever being told "parle moi en francais" as if she's second class as I've experienced. Let me tell you. It's not pleasant and that shit sticks with you.
Very clear and sad. I am sorry such a great place as Quebec has these aspects (that in my trip over there I experienced a tiny bit, although they didn't affect me since I belong to another world). I might add that the French-speaking there are defending themselves in some way, but nonetheless ...
It's outrageous behavior at this point and it's time to call them out. They didn't like it when the English did it to them so why are they acting like this? More and more people are getting pissed off including me.
ReplyDeleteTheir excuses are not washing anymore.
What makes me laugh is when they say Americans are racist without realizing their own brand of prejudiced actions.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know there is no equivalent to the Office de la Langue Francais harrassing people in America.
They can screw off. Excuse my French.
And...here's another thing.
ReplyDeleteWhen they act like this they actually TURN PEOPLE AWAY from their language.
It's funny. Italians, Greeks, Portuguese etc. We don't need laws to protect our culture and we're on the wrong end of those laws. Yet, les Quebecois feel they can't live without draconian laws.
It's funny. Italians, Greeks, Portuguese etc. We don't need laws to protect our culture and we're on the wrong end of those laws. Yet, les Quebecois feel they can't live without draconian laws.
ReplyDeleteI think there are two reasons for that in my opinion, and they apply both to the French in France and to les Quebecois:
1) The 'French' in general feel robbed by the 'English' of their language as a lingua franca of the world (plus they were beated by the British in overall world politics). Only one century ago the world élites spoke French, not English. This upsets them totally. Some French Parisian friends we have, despite their good English, avoid speaking English with us despite the fact that my wife's French is very weak.
2) As I see it 'the French' would be a perfect culture and people - you know how much I like them - if it weren't for this excessive self-love they have that makes them a bit ridiculous, I'm sorry to say that (ridiculous probably here in Europe; in Quebec it may be tragic, sad, don't know, too a far world for me to judge)
Insomma, prima dell'avvento dell'America gli Inglesi e i Francesi europei erano i popoli più forti del mondo e competevano tra loro: ciò ha lasciato delle tracce profonde nelle anime di entrambi i popoli, sia del vecchio che del nuovo mondo. I Francesi reagiscono a modo loro, un po' troppo da galli (cocks, or roosters). Ma gli Inglesi, con il loro high brow ... Orgogli espressi in modo diverso, non so quale peggiore. Lo sai che non amo i nazionalismi estremi.
Clearly I reason from a standpoint not strictly Canadian, but that rebounds on Quebec I believe.
There are some stupid Quebecers and Frenchmen and women, I agree with that part. Yes the P.Q. was, barely, given a plurality in the last election and that is a sign that 60% of the voters disagreed with them.
ReplyDeleteWhat made the difference was the presence of la Coalition pour l'avenir du Québec (la C.A.Q.), you probably voted for it.
This situation emboldened the extremists in the separatist ranks and, knowing that they may not be long in power, they try to make the most of it. It leads to disgusting situations, I agree. It just fosters contrary extreme reactions such as this post.
Sixteen years ago, my daughters left for Ontario to further their carreers. Both perfectly bilingual and they did well. But they were always the "Frenchies" stealing jobs from the Ontarians and were the butt of bad jokes. They came back 6 years ago.
The Franco-Ontarian part of my family were denied, then, access to French Schools and were not able to get any services in French until the still very unpopular Law 8 was voted in Queenspark.
When we put things in perspective, some nuances appear. Tirades such as T.C.'s only worsen things and contributes to harden stances when what is needed is smoothing over. We are going through a rough period, yes, making rougher is of no help.
I like we are here discussing as we did in the ol' times. One has to say aloud what he / she doesn't like although smoothing over is often the best course of action. As a friend of mine used to say:
ReplyDelete"Quando uno è giovane fa l'incendiario, poi, con l'età, diventa pompiere."
Pardon my Eurocentric view, but as a European I cannot but see all his in terms of the eternal strife between the English and the French.
Paul, I didn't vote for the CAQ. I wanted to make sure the Liberal came in.
ReplyDeleteI don't know the details of Law 8 but I'm pretty sure if the Anglo-Quebecers came up with a flag like that the majority wouldn't like it.
I don't know why you call this post a "tirade." Over 6000 posts and a few have been dedicated to this nonsense because I pretty much take your view. But I'm fed up with the crap I see.
So if it takes a tirade to make things better so be it.
MOR, I agree with your assessment. Part of it was they never could accept English dominance. They lost the war in 1763. The British, for whatever reasons, DID leave them alone. They forget that.
My cousin lived in England/Scotland for five years. They're pretty arrogant to the point of idiocy in his view. He now lives in Spain and much prefers the attitude of the Spanish AND Italians. Great cultures with the right amount of pride in his view.
It's unfortunate to hear Ontario still acts this way but I have a sneaking suspicion it's not as embedded as it is here. I have French-Canadian friends who work in Toronto and are blazing through the ranks in their companies.
ReplyDeleteYou rarely, if ever, see that here. Will Quebec ever have a Julian Fantino? I don't think so.
Cripes, you can't even hire the best available person to coach a lousy hockey team here. You have to settle for guys like Therrien.
Bottom line: They don't have the OLF there. We do. We actually FINE people for merely expressing themselves in English. We've gone a step further then they have.
Anyway.
It's wrong either way. People should be free in this country. A Quebecer should be accorded every right and respect anywhere in this country as any Canadian should.
Last point. Ironically, Quebecers on the ground increasingly don't accept the position of dinosaurs like the PQ. I agree with that and your comment about them trying to ruffle feathers.
Problem with that Paul is it sets us back.
Personally, not interested in this place anymore.
Yet another point. Your kids were Quebecers in Ontario. The "interloper" seen as taking jobs is something we see all across Europe and North America. Mexicans "take" jobs in the U.S., Poles and Turks "take" jobs in Germany, etc.
ReplyDeleteMy point is we're actual TAX PAYING CITIZENS of Quebec and STILL face prejudicial behavior based on language. That's my point.
Big difference to me.
With our Greek name, we never have been considered totally Québécois,and through stuborness I have stuck to French although I could just as easily could have become an Anglophone. My kids went to Champlain College and all graduated from McGill.
DeleteI spent my whole carreer working with both language group, often being the only one in my institution able to do so. I was assigned to contact committees between the two groups.
I can remember when an angry Alliance Québec delegate clamored for services that were not even available to our French beneficiaries. Suddenly he grasped that situation. He looked at me and said:"Oh! Then let's fight toghether." And we did.
Dialogue furthers things much better than confrontation. The P.Q. hardliners do not understand this, but then, hardliners of any stripe do not understand that either..
During our vacation in Quebec I remember that, when we had gone up north, we met a German couple in a wood. We made friends with them and continued our trip together for a while. At a bed & breakfast in Roberval along the Saint-Jean lac we were one morning having breakfast, Flavia, I and the 2 Germans. Three mid-aged French sisters from Montreal were also sitting at that big table. Noticing how we talking lively in English, the four of us, they asked us where we were from, after which one commented kind of sadly: "For you Europeans languages mean communication, for us they mean division."
DeleteThis in any case shows how the French sisters from Montreal were moderate and regretted language divisions.
My daughter isn't staying here. I don't want her ever being told "parle moi en francais" as if she's second class as I've experienced. Let me tell you. It's not pleasant and that shit sticks with you.
ReplyDeleteThe Commentator has probably scars that explain his resentment, Paul. Of course, we all have our scars, and behave accordingly in some way.
My cousin ... now lives in Spain and much prefers the attitude of the Spanish AND Italians. Great cultures with the right amount of pride in his view.
The 'right' amount of pride in Spain and Italy may depend on the fact that our glories are farther away in time. During the Renaissance, when South Europe was rich and North Europe poor, I can picture the Italians considering the English, the Dutch etc. in an arrogant way, as barbarians. Shakespeare is a witness of that, he often speaking in terms of 'proud' Italy vs England (in Richard the Second, act II, 21, for ex.)
Yes, there are scars. Not enough to prevent me from moving forward or holding a grudge because as Paul says, they are a minority. Problem is this minority WORK AS PUBLIC SERVANTS.
ReplyDeleteI can't shield her from idiocy but I can go somewhere where it's minimized. I feel in Quebec the idiots have too much power.
I've been told, by Anglophones to "speak white" when they heard me speaking French and "un maudit Bloke" by Francophones hearing me speak English.
DeleteNo ethnic group has a monopoly on stupidity. Even Dilbert's Elbonians have their bright moments.
Paul: I get fined for it. You don't.
DeleteAnd two wrongs most certainly make a right.
Here's another thing I'm hearing more and more. People are so tired of it like I am, they specifically speak English in public. We can speak three languages and have done everything asked of us. We won't go further.
ReplyDeleteNormally, the cue is if one at least tries or respects the other, we switch language. That's the unwritten code of etiquette.
Right.
ReplyDeleteAnglos moving here from the rest of the country (and I know several including myself, despite you and most of the staff of the National Post trying as hard as you can to convince non-residents that this is some kind of Siberian hellhole) are blown away by the hard-line, lifelong Anglo Quebecers. People are generally coming here knowing French or knowing they have to learn it and are under the impression that most of the English who were/are uncomfortable with the French-speaking majority left in the 70s or 90s. I still think that's true. But I guess there's still a few hardliners à la Galganov/Richler who feel the need to talk about the Québécois like some mean, mentally deficient fascists for not lying down and becoming totally anglicized in order to accomodate a linguistic group which is a minority within the province, but a 98% majority on the continent.
ReplyDeleteYou guys are like White South Africans complaining about how bad they have it now. I'm sorry but f----- get over yourselves already.
Did you ever think an STM collector or a paramedic might be assholes...just because they're assholes? No, it must be because they're french. Like any of us in the rest of Canada have never had to deal with incompetent, rude, ignorant, disgraceful behaviour from public servants. Give me a break.
English is under threat in Quebec because the separatists are in power. Yeah, how have the lives of thousands of Anglophones who live on the island of Montreal, (I know people who have lived hear upwards of ten years that still don't speak French), and have no problem conducting any of their business that they need to changed from Sept 4 to Sept 5? And how do you think that would work out for a francophone, or any-non anglophone in the rest of Canada? I'll tell you, it wouldn't. That's a fact - how is it a straw man argument. They would be forced to become proficient in short order if they wanted to participate in society. So I guess that makes Canadians "racist" and "fascist" like the PQ.
I'm sure politically (as fellow members of the non-partisan blog roll), we're on the same page about a lot of stuff and there's probably a generation gap between us too. I'm not threatened by you, T.C. You just have expressed some views I felt the need to publicly disagree with.
Thanks for the comment.
ReplyDeleteA bunch of hogwash of course but thanks. Yeah, Richler was a "hardliner." Please.
And I will not get over it. If we were to present a paper based on facts of civil liberies, Quebec would lose. Period. The fact remains YOU DON'T GET FINED in Ontario or Minnesota for putting up a French sign. Sure, you "may" get some comments but no damn inspector will come harrass you. What part of that don't you get?
There seems to be a few too many assholes in those places because it happens often. And so we're clear. And my readers can attest to this I never, ever, never paint the entire population with one brush for the bad actions of some. I never said it's "because they're French." Ever. Nor do I insinuate it. I'm conscience of the fact it usually comes down to a person's actions.
Sorry. I've travelled, my cousin travels the world professionally, it DOES happen more here. Public service is taken far more seriously abroad and language doesn't play an issue like it does here. Sorry. Not buying it.
Still. I agree a few bad apples...
And another thing. It's not the "aggressive Anglo" the problem. I'm of neither side and we've never really paid much attention because the laws basically fuck the Quebecers over not us. So we go on.
ReplyDeleteWe're just tired of the constant targeting. I own a business with 10 employees. How do you think I feel when I hear Marois say that she will enact laws to make sure French is enforced in the workplace? What if it's a family run business who happen to speak English? They'll have to speak French? Prevent immigrants from going to use a daycare service in the language of their choice??
To you, normal. To me, abnormal.
If you don't feel threatened by me (and you shouldn't since I never threatened you), then why accept all these rules that only upset people?
Why even talk this way? If you're predisposed to believe society gets some of its social cues from politicians, then I'm afraid the PQ ARE the most divisive party ON THE CONTINENT. I don't know of any party that has managed to dupe so many Quebecers into thinking promoting one culture at the expense of another is intellectually acceptable.
I listen to both English, American and French radio. Sorry. On average Quebec is byfar the politicized of all. We'll turn a raisin into a political issue.